ATSUSHI TSUYAMA "starring as Henry the Human Horse"

Shine the light on all my rural friends. They’re up in Plainfield, VT. or Kutztown, PA, or in really mellow and homey wharehouse spaces carved outta fucked up brick buildings all over Philadelphia. They have fireplaces going and theyre smoking pot like freaking hippies. Right now. They’re kicking back with eachother because they’re not too worried about any bullshit hassles (I hope). And theyre wearing cool clothes from American Family thriftstores from 1974. They even look like the covers of old INCREDIBLE STRING BAND records left rotting in the thrifts, I mean theyre all washed out in sunlight and their eyes are all droopy as they smile at you gentley like elves. And maybe their kids are running around and climbing over them screaming. And its all good and peaceful. And even if yr pose is like, I don’t know, grindcore or noise, you gotta admit that looking like and trying to live like the fucking hippies in INCREDIBLE STRING BAND is sincerely a good way to be. And this guy with the horse mask on his head and all his hippy asian friends are o good and righteous that they make me pine over my own friends. And I don’t care if yr the coolest asshole in the world wide scumpunk union, these hippies fall down and out better than you; and they do it in pretty rice paddies early in the morning with Japanese instrumentation and beautiful, spiritual singing. Some of the songs are so warm they make me love them, just like "walking with Jesus" and "ode to street hassle" made me love SPACEMEN 3 back during the summer of beads. I mean this is a special record. Smoke out the metalcore dorks… FMN SOUND FACTORY/#103 HEIGHTS ECRAT 201 SUGADAIZAN CHO/BUKKOJI SHINMACHI DORI/ NISHI IRU/ SHIMOKYOKU/ KYOTO 600

PALACE "lost blues and other songs"

there is nothing more beautiful and odd than riding around on Tokyo subways surrounded by salarymen in expensive suits and dour faces, housewives in furs and Prada shit, teenage girls in highschool uniforms with 2-way wristwatch cell phones, and teenage boys with the make up and the blonde hair; while listening to this collection of extremely American songs on an MD walkman. Ironic, paradoxical, unsettling, funny, sad, contradictory and beautiful. The warmth of this music surrounded by cold stares, sterile clean walls, star trek sliding doors, and brite florescent lightbulbs, speeding under and through and over this immense fucking city that boasts no buildings older than 30 years; that looks from above, through clear train windows, so much like a fucking gigantic motherboard from some gigantic super computer, flashing and pulsing and humming in electricity and neon; unsettling and unglued like Slaughterhouse 5. Like a great American film or some novel about an expatriate. And the truly great songs on this, "marriage" and "gulf shores" both SOUND like certain great early ‘70s movies LOOK; I mean NIGHT MOVES and EUREKA fr’ instance. I mean they sound like those movies feel. And thats pretty emo in a bluey bluegrass way. Your thoughts? DRAG CITY PO BOX 476867 CHGO IL 60647

CULT JUNK CAFÉ CD

look at all the rice paper used to write reviews and wipe the butts of salarymen fresh and gross from bonenkais all along the Yamanote Line. The equivalent of some drunken epiphany on the first train home at a groggy 5:55 am lurching through daybreak Tokyo on a cold February morning. How do you explain yrself when everyone knows what you’ve done, everyone saw you and you, right now, leaning on a pole and staring sickly out a window at Tokyo blurring by, know that this is all so horribly, terribly true. You’re big mouth will always be so big, yr words will always sound so fucking pretentious while they puke outta yr skull, and it’ll always be the same… And when the train slows down at yr fucked up freezing early morning station and you fall out the doors you realize like a slow shot to the soggy heart that it’s no big deal; just as long as you remain graceful here with all the chicken zombies. Buy a genki drink for 3,000 yen. Swig it down as giant crows announce yr arrival. The people begin to cheer and clap and hurrah whence they see you as everyone you’ve ever pissed off doffs his or her topper in yr direction. For they know you are only who you are, and that in the end everythings always alright. And then from somewhere some kid with cell phone and a cool scarf around his neck hits PLAY and "why be something that you’re not" by NEGATIVE APPROACH blares out of his box! Just like Palm Sunday. GENTLEGIANT/POBOX50013/KALAMAZOO MI/4900

THE SKINGRAFT CD WITH NO NAME, BUT WITH "WHAT THE HECKS GOING ON HERE" ON THE ACTUAL ALUMINIUM PRODUCT

is a caterwauling thematic manga-esque violent freak-jazz epic. It anticipated the Pocketmonster freak out wherein 800 schoolchildren were driven to photosensitive epileptic seizures from the intensity of the noise visuals. The equivalent of a crazy all-night work out at some neon hell hole all hopped up on shabu (Jap meth), seriously expensive genki drinks and red wine, trying to keep calm in yr seat while watching some twisted and sad local Japanese mello jazz combo play "hits" from Chet Baker-Cali, with super expensive electronic piano and such shit, while the lead man in embarrassing sunglasses and a horrible yellow suit ‘sings’ like a ‘homeboy’. I mean its like a crazy cultural mishmash wherein Chicago borrows from the borrowers if you catch my drift, and all the sublties that may entail. And you think about crap like that cuz yr all messed up and its really early yet, and yr in this hole on the neon 5^th floor of some crazy new building, and the lights flash so fast you start to feel really woozy, and as yr eyes begin to roll back in yr head, the hostess next to you smilingly puts her hand in yr pocket, she knows you just got yr fucking Year End Bonus ashole. SKINGRAFT RECORDS SOMEWHERE IN THE WINDY CITY USA

JUST ONE DAY

heres a shout out to the BURKE COUNTY THRASHERS! Cuz the KIDS FOR CASH revival is alive and well and living in the gentle suburbs of Mt. Fuji. And, considering how history moves in fast forward over here, its no surprise that the ASSFACTOR 4 revival lives right next door. Right beside the OX/CHASE SQUAD/BUTTERCUP revival (I mean, on a video I have, J.O.D. sound exactly like later day OX) And if you know the names in the first two sentences then youre as old as me and you may wanna track this down. SNUFFYSMILE/4-24-4-302 DAIZAWA/SETAGAYAKU/TOKYO 155/JAPAN

THE ACTUALITY OF THOUGHT video

after living in asia for 2 years there are things about the USA that I miss like any american boy or girl would. I mean I miss the good things that make america beautiful and almost trustworthy. After living in Tokyo, seeing ‘shows’ in super-pro clubs for 3000yen (about 33 bucks),and watching hardcore kids pay more money for thrifted old tee shirts and running shoes from america than for BRAND NEW clothes, I’m reminded powerfully of what I’ve missed and miss now. Like cool shows in people’s livingrooms in big old houses with groovy emo kids doing the Groovy-Edge dance like pix of RITES OF SPRING, wearing beads like its a MOSS ICON party, rocking out to HATED style hippy jams, while getting the red wine emo going with a big-ass jug(SEROTONIN); and underground american guitar bands so joyously powerful, like a unit, like a soccer team, changing gear together and switching it up gracefully, like a fucking human machine! (BRAID,, CAVE IN, JEJUNE) and I end up missing the mellow, no-pressure hang outs in smalltowns or big east coast cities… this live footage is all good enough to excuse the fact that the makers filled the rest of the thing with their pointless Video-School RESUMES, that would have better been filled with almost ANY tangential footage from any one of the shows. Still, please see this if you don’t live in the USA(because its an example of the cultural hegemony of something GOOD for a change) BIFOCAL MEDIA

DISCO OR DEW "one"

If I had enough disposable income over here and I was stupid (or romantic) enough to put out records that no one would wanna buy, I’d put out a 5 cd set of DISCO OR DEW crap because they are one of only 2 or 3 bands in Tokyo that have really, legitimately, deep-down impressed me. I mean in a real, soulful, hardcore way. I mean I don’t feel gross or dirty or corrupt or suckered buying their demos. I mean its safe to say that they truly do what they want. Songs so unique and frazzled and funny and good and spazztic and jumpy and stupid and clever, fucked with by thin fingers of a man and a woman on the knobs of a camo-colored Tascam 4-track. Cheappy guitar that slices into the roland drum machine beat and cuts it in half with punkish naivete, that improv into groovy space rock passages that make always make you wanna take drugs… and weirdo vocals about whatever. Its so modern sounding while being completely folksy and true and ‘hardcore’. This really is ‘free’ music. Packed in a cover featuring a computer-processed manga of a tokyo no-wave creep with a bloody mouth and ’77 nyc shades. Disco or dew are totally the shit even if they don’t realize it. (and its no surprise if all the Jap-sploitation labels on Broadway don’t realize it either)

POP OF BOB/2-19-35 NAKACHO/KOGANEI-SHI TOKYO/184 JAPAN

UK SUBWAYS demo

HASHIGO "storm" this cassette simply rules. its like standing on a mountaintop watching a hurricane come at you. then its all around you.

OTSUKI YOUJI/1-29-2-431 SODEGUARA/NARASHINO CITY/CHIBA JAPAN

DISCO OR DEW "ninth"

the progression continues. Mellow loungey space rock made in a lo-fi karaoke box on a school day in Shibuya ; progressing into sudden spazz out japanese style neu-rock that has made this land famous; mutating into hip hoppy trip hop beat-led weirdo poetry in japanese with broken english; completely devolving into cutesy-pie, pinky ring, Shibuya-girl pop. And then back suddenly to the creepy spazz-out freak show. It reminds one of a ‘70s japanese action flick, except that theres a lot of dynamic silence in those. Whatever,its another beautiful tape in another beautiful package (color bubble jet (lofi over here for sure) pic of a white man and his asian doctor, song titles in katakana, hiragana and english. With a mini manga poster printed on expensive paper.)

POP OF BOB 2-19-35 NAKACHO/KOGANEI-SHI TOKYO 184 JAPAN

PSYCHEDELIC CRAZYHORSE "short cuts"

for all the PSF label fanatics, this is an obvious must. Awesome psych guitar that just soars. A bass so slippery you’d start doing the invisible beachball dance like a dead head too, and jazzy drums. Jamming improvisations and songs that start to fall apart from the spaciness just like MOSS ICON did. In fact if this were given to me with out info, I would have guessed it was recorded in 1988 during The Summer Of Beads, at some secret fire hall show in Virginia or Maryland or Eastern PA, with MOSS ICON, THE UPTOWN BONES, THE TAR BABIES, DIE KRUEZEN ’88, DINOSAUR, SHUDDER TO THINK and DAS DAMEN all on the bill. With lots of Birkenstocks and beads and sst shirts and pot and lenghthening hair. A show avoided like plague by all the hooded sweatshirt dorks and ‘posi’s, during that segregated summer. But alas these jams are from Tokyo clubs about as far removed from a hall show as you can possibly get. But if any of this review regurgitates any of yr secret history then youre welcome and we know what side you were on back then, and you have already sent the money for this fucking cassette right?

CRAZYHORSE/20 MARUTOSO/SHIMOREN JAKU 4-17-22/MITAKA-SHI/TOKYO 181 JAPAN

DISCO OR DEW "good evening lp hint"

the evolution continues; downbeat, mopey, scary and creepy. With more rad freak show guitar and electronic drum machine shit as if played by a completely graceles computer otaku(nerd) let lose for the first time. This time think fusion jazz and teeming cities, crowded trains and fast fingers on a frettless, because of the bass… think about ornette coleman…sad emotions are in play, even as they are still as playful as ever. The packaging is a giant fold-out color printed cover, die cut and designed to fit, full of shakey, spaceship/robot manga and hiragana. It looks like a cheap atari 2600 package.

POP OF BOB

ENVY "from here to eternity"

good, big, progressive hardcore songs by gentle, Christ-like japanese guys with amish beards and hearts on their sleeves. Totally reminiscent of the Pennsylvania Dutch Emo scene and fashion craze, which makes my day. Tortured screams, lots of epic parts, microphone held to the heart in anguish and tears… and on the video with SMASH YOUR FACE theyre even better than this cd, so you know theyre a real live group

HG FACT 401 HONGO M/2-36-2 YAYOI-CHO/NAKANO/TOKYO 164 JAPAN

HIGH RISE "psychedelic speed freaks 84-85"

probably some of the most raw, loud,tough, physical music ever recorded; by this legendary japanese psych-punk deal. The title says everything that ever needed to be said about them. The ex-kids of philly are all over this like its a way of life 15 years after the fact. (and I guess thats cooler than trying to relive some revised history of ’88 straight edge.)

TIME BOMB/TOPORO 51 BLDG/2-18-18 NISHI-SHINSAIBASHI/CHUO-KU/OSAKA 542 JAPAN

INDIAN SUMMER "live blue heaven"

when I saw this in a shop in Tokyo I almost flipped. A great radio show evening recorded forever. Like the universe is an empty expanse of Rothko-blue with only some see through radio station studio floating forever through the void, filling it with such powerful and spacious music, moving like the universe from gentle and contemplative to massive and huge. And no one else is alive…

(no adress or nuthin)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((tonie joy)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The secret history of classical maryland emo. toniejoy,mossicon,universalorderofarmageddon, the hated, the great unraveling…

ERIC-so what did you want me to do?

TONIE-um, just to be like our minister of information or our biographerΙ or just whatever youΥd wanna write, like that live review in the last Raw Pogo was pretty much right & down with itΙ Is it recording?

ERIC-you know it.

TONIE-so youΥll have to get the momentum going again, thats your responsibility.

ERIC-Do you mind if I smoke in here? Are you guys smokers?

TONIE-He isΙ

SCOTT-IΥm Scott by the way.

ERIC-O.K., first question: were you all into ΢Live at LeedsΣ?

TONIE-Yeah. When I was younger my cousin had the English copy with all the cool posters and shit in there. I was into it but, I mean they were kinda long-haired by then. And I was always most into the first couple years, the mod years.

ERIC-awesome.

TONIE-mainly just cuz of their fashion scene.

ERIC-yeah, I taped a bunch of old SMALL FACES and CREATION shit for you. Eddie Phillips was the mod guitar king.

TONIE-yeah, and I guess THE WHO in a way werenΥt even totally mod.

ERIC-people always say the SMALL FACES were like SHAM 69 and the CLASH and the SEX PISTOLS were like the WHO, like created by their managersΙ slashing guitars are the shitΙ

TONIE-΢Live at LeedsΣ is cool as far as rock guitar goesΙ

ERIC-as far as big guitar goes. Anyway, when did THE GREAT UNRAVELLING start?

SCOTT-MotherΥs Day 1995.

TONIE-yeahΙ hey, whoΥs that guy? I see that guy around.

ERIC Thats Bob Jourgenson. HeΥs the guy that does Pastuerella Gardens. And OXYGEN AUCTIONΙ

BOB-are you going to see MAINLINER in NYC?

ERIC-I was actually just up there for the past couple of days. Me and Beth were thinking weΥd see MAINLINER at the Japanese Consulate. We had to get our work visas and shit. Blah blah blah blahΙ.

TONIE-youΥll have fun picking through all this, and trying to separate out our shit.

ERIC-I know. What should I do with all this information? Just transcribe it and send it back to you?

TONIE=I thought you were gonna do it for yr magazine. But weΥll just see what from this is useable for our purposes, but this will be useable for yours too.

ERIC-but thats not gonna be for like a year or 2, I mean the next RAW POGOΙ

TONIE-well, weΥll pick through it before a yearΥs up cuz I donΥt know if talking about ΢Live at LeedsΣ will really help KILL ROCK STARS. But IΥm sure something might come up, even in the mail in Japan. Or you can just listen to this conversation and ponderΙ just write shit. Cuz yr the writer, man.

ERIC-well, tell me some more fucking John Vance stories! See, thats for my purposes but thats too ancient for yours isnΥt it?

TONIE-um, no its all probably cool for it. Its cool for your fanzine; probably yours and only yours butΙ

ERIC-yeah. Man, there are a lot of cops aroundΙ So is this how Baltimore looks, like parts of the town?

TONIE-yeah. BaltimoreΥs really good looking. I like Baltimore architecturally. Thats what I tell everybody thats not from Baltimore. But anyway, back then, we werenΥt really from Baltimore. We were from Annapolis, MOSS ICON was.

ERIC-is that far away?

TONIE-its 25 minutes. We played in Baltimore a few times but I never really associated with many people from there. I knew of people but I never really talked to them. We were pretty secluded, which was really weird cuz it was just a little town surrounded by weird suburbs. ThereΥs a Naval Academy there like the equivalent of West Point. Its really conservative and white. But that was kinda cool cuz like, especially in the mid and late 80Υs there was this totally weirdΙ like the subculture or whatever that would go to punk shows was totally weird. Like hippies but not even normal hippies, but weirdos who smoked a lot of pot and listened to both VOID and the MEAT PUPPETSΙ

ERIC-as it should be

TONIE-It was definitely a cool thing to come out of. And almost all the people just fell off the face of the earth and didnΥt stay true to their thing.

ERIC-is there a scene in Annapolis now?

TONIE-not like there was. I mean theres probably young kids but its probably totally different. But the whole lineage of weirdos from back then didnΥt really carry on, except for a few people. And thereΥre even people that are older than that who have carried on. Scott and I were talking about this band JUDYΥS FIXATION who were totally like 70Υ and early 80Υs punk rock.

SCOTT-did you ever hear of AVANT CHRISTMAS? Jeff SurelyΥs(?) band from Υ74 to Υ75?

ERIC-were they like STOOGES style? Were they heavy and good?

SCOTT-big time; chewing beer bottles up with their teeth and biting chunks of their lips off and smashing guitars and everything.

ERIC-like the Baltimore Foot Stomper. He looks pretty Stooges style, or American or whatever.

TONIE-yeah, who is the Baltimore Foot Stomper?

ERIC-the guy in a John Waters film. I donΥt even know which film. Maybe the one where they eat all the cops? You Maryland people must have seen those movies right?

TONIE-IΥve only kinda watched one of his movies.

ERIC-they show that shit in Philly art house movie theaters.

SCOTT-yeah, its weird. Everywhere but Baltimore.

ERIC-thatΥs fucked cuz he is BaltimoreΥs son.

TONIE-yeah, heΥs probably one of the coolest people thats come out of there.

ERIC-and heΥs all blatantly local and shit.

TONIE-IΥm just waiting for a nice relaxing evening and a VCR. IΥve never had a chance to watch his moviesΙ but anyway, they were weird times back then and IΥm not sure where we should go with your questions.

ERIC-ha ha ha haΙ IΥm having trouble thinking of questions that you could use for GREAT UNRAVELLINGΙ

TONIE-I mean if you really want, I can think of some John Vance stories. I could tell you more general stories. There are lots of old live tapes that sort of speak for themselvesΙ

ERIC-did you think DC was lame back then?

TONIE-um, no. Cuz when MOSS ICON started out we were pretty aware of DC hardcore. But there wasΙ OK, IΥll tell you a funny storyΙ

ERIC-wait, when was this?

TONIE-we started in 1987, and early Υ88 is when we really got it going. But for a bunch of years up to that we had already been into punk. But we were always into shit that was older like JOY DIVISION or whatever. But we were aware. We thought DISCHORD was a really cool, localized thing. I donΥt know about JohnΙ but we were totally into like MINOR THREAT just cuz it was so raw. But I think John and my favorites were always VOID. And IΥll always to this day sayΙ people say that this or that band is so hardcore, and IΥm like no man, real hardcore is VOID. Or FAITH

ERIC-VOID on ΢Flex Your HeadΣ. I remember playing ΢dehumanizedΣ on the family stereo and my mom looking at me like ΢what the fuck?Σ

TONIE-I missed out on seeing that shit just cuz I lived far enough away and I never had a ride. It was a drag. None of myΙ I never really had any friends actually, but what friends I had didnΥt even drive. And they probably were only cool enough to listen to ECHO AND THE BUNNYMEN.

ERIC-I liked ECHO AND THE BUNNYMEN. Yeah, was Annapolis into ECHO and JOY DIVISION and that kind of stuff? Some of those bands would make you think so.

TONIE-I donΥt know about ECHO, but I liked them.

ERIC-did you ever hear ΢Angels and DevilsΣ? Its like some old single or someshit. But its super psychedelic, like an old VELVETS drug song with like fakie sitars and shit.

TONIE-no I didnΥtΙ when we started playing in DC, all the people were pretty into us. I didnΥt really think that would happen. But I never thought DC people were lame. Some people from Annapolis who had been in the scene alittle longer than us thought some of the people in DC were lame, just cuz some people in Annapolis felt like they never got a breakΙ

ERIC-like the SPAZTIC RATS?

TONIE-not necessarily them. But I think it was cuz some people were really lazy and they werenΥt willing to be friendlyΙ

ERIC-why did UOA stop?

TONIE-uh (long awkward pause)Ιjust cuzΙ people being lame.

ERIC-(ha ha) Whats the dudeΥs name? Colin Seven?

TONIE-thats not really his last name, but he was kinda fucked up. Plus everyone started going in separate ways.

ERIC-whats ColinΥs deal?

TONIE-I donΥt keep in touch with him. Scotts the only one IΥve kept in touch with obviously. But that pretty much says why the band broke up. I never say this when Scotts in my presence, so this will probably be the first time heΥll hear this, but I never really paid much attention because I was off in my own world dealing with my on bullshit but it appeared that Colin and Scott didnΥt get along. I guess they didnΥt wanna be in a band togetherΙ I wouldnΥt wanna be in a band with someone I didnΥt get along with.

ERIC-you wrote all the songs right?

TONIE-I wrote all the guitar shit and everyone else wrote their own things.

ERIC-how much of that was improv stuff?

TONIE-not as much as MOSS ICON. Just cuz the music was a lot moreΤ rocket scientistΥ style. But I think some of the writing process was kinda improv; like some of the better shit was like actually Scott instigating the song from improv bass lines that we would add stuff to. But then some of it was real meticulous, probably to the point of driving everyone crazy but me, based around these 7 part complex things. I guess it was just another chapter to end and to move on and evolve.

ERIC-what bands were you in?

SCOTT-UOA was pretty much the first band. The singer, Colin, who I didnΥt get along withΙ

ERIC-he was like some kid from Crofton or something?

SCOTT-he was from the same neighborhood, Pasadena. Another suburb between Annapolis and Baltimore.

TONIE-but its more like eastΙ Like my suburb, I was from Severna Park originally.

ERIC-All these places share some cultural pull to Baltimore right?

TONIE-especially in Pasadena. If you go south from there to where I was from its more Annapolitan. The joke isΙ like IΥm from Severna Park, and its all these like rich people who think theyΥre shit. But really theyre just people from Glen Burnie which is some scummy suburb of Baltimore. Actually, John Vance coined the term ΢Severna-BurnieΣ.

SCOTT-so all these suburbs all kinda go together.

TONIE-cuz the normal people who thought they were cool and had money were really just white trash with some money.

ERIC-white flight families from Baltimore who escaped to the suburbs?

TONIE-yeah. Like they scammed enough money with construction companies that they had enough money; but their kids are still smoking PCP and riding around on their BMX bikes.

ERIC-well thats a good way to be.

TONIE-well they could afford a lot of PCP as opposed to the Glen Burnie kids who had to steal stereos to buy their greens and PCP.

ERIC-havenΥt drugs played any part in your bands?

TONIE-not really.

ERIC-IΥd imagine John Vance was a pothead. His improv words make him seem like he must have been a druggy.

TONIE-yeah he used a lot of shit. But he was far out really, before it. He has an older brother who was into a lot more shit. Once we were sitting in his room; weΥd just started MOSS ICON, and his brother came in and started telling us about these visions heΥd had. Like some painting he was gonna paint from his visions, talking about this huge woman devouring him with her vagina and all this crazy PCP induced shit. When we practiced JohnΥd always wanna pick up my guitar and play SABBATH riffs, the dude was totally out there. And he had all these burn out friends whoΥd smoke greensΙ I guess JohnΥs been way down that road. But that was pretty much it. I think everyone in UOA barely used anything ever.

ERIC-UOA totally sounds like a stoner band to me.

TONIE-thats cool. Thats totally awesome. Thats a good thing.

SCOTT-its especially good cuz it wasnΥt.

ERIC-well big guitar bands always sound that way. When yr smoked.

TOE-we got kinda lumped into that whole Τclean, short-haired, youngΥ neo-hardcore kid thing.

ERIC-but not for everybody. Not for people who could see and listen more deeplyΙ

TONIE-yeah. But at the same time we were like weird elders to those people. And IΥm older than everyone in the UNRAVELLING to. But I feel like I stopped aging at a certain point.

ERIC-totally. Age doesnΥt matter as long as you do things; age is bull, you just hopefully grow old well.

TONIE-totally.

ERIC-I like birthdaysΙ Shit, I lost my smokesΙ (long long pause)

SCOTT-do you want an L&M?

(lots of silenceΙ)

TONE-cΥmon man, youre the journalist.

ERIC-I know, thats the whole thing, like, IΥm not. I can never interview people normallyΙ

TONIE-well, your curiosities seep out alittle bit at a time.

ERIC-we need to be stonedΙ yeah I do want an L&M.

TONIE-weΥll send your smokes to Japan.

ERIC-ok heres a generic question: what were the first shows you guys saw?

SCOTT-my first show was the MONKEES and HERMANΥS HERMITS. I was still like 9 years old.

TONIE-I was around that age and I saw HEART. Either the ΢dream boat AnnieΣ or the ΢Little QueenΣ tour. The one with ΢BarracudaΣ. I saw JETHRO TULL.

ERIC-so you had hippy parents?

TONIE-kinda, they didnΥt take me to shows. By then it was more my cousin who was taking me.

SCOTT-he was into the RESIDENTS too.

TONIE-yeah I went to see the RESIDENTS when I was like 12. HEART and JETHRO TULL were kind of a joke, but THE RESIDENTS was the first real cool thing I ever saw.

ERIC-how old were you?

TONIE-it was the Mole Show and they havenΥt done many Mole Shows ever. It was this big elaborate rock opera/play thing. And there was this weird dude passing out flyers out front for like a VOID show so it was round Υ83 or Υ82.

ERIC-awesome.

TONIE-it was at this weird big old ballroom with fountains. And there were like totally weird early Τ80s punks there and people in tuxedos; like government embassy people going out to see Τthe art thingΥ.

ERIC-its so much better when things are thrown together like that.

TONIE-and it was just great. And being that age it just blew my mind. But the first cool punk show I saw wasΙ I didnΥt really start going to shows outside of a few rare ones that happened in Annapolis until like Υ86. But I saw THE SPASTIC RATS and THE HATED playing acoustically at this roller rink in Annapolis. I had just gotten my driverΥs license so it was Υ85. That was the first punk show I ever really went to. But a couple years later, one of the first ones I went to with a band from out of townΙ I meant to ask you about this; what do you know about the band RUIN from Philadelphia?

ERIC-uh, I saw them a couple of times. They were pretty old.

TONIE-cuz I saw them in Baltimore in Υ86 or Υ87 and thought they were amazing.

ERIC-they were like the first ΤBuddhistΥ band. Before NY bands got into ΤBuddhismΥ or Krishna or whatever, they were like Soka Ga Kai Buddhists or something.

TONIE-they were justΙ in the context I saw them, they were just amazing because back then Baltimore was really fucked up and violent and drunk. It was at this hall and there were fights and people outside with guns and knives. Just crazy hardcore weirdness.

ERIC-were they chanting? That was their thing.

TONIE-they werenΥt chanting but they got up on stage all dressed in white with all these candles burning. And everyoneΥs just like ΢oh noΣ, throwing bottles at them, yelling ΢fuck youΣ. GOVERNMENT ISSUE was supposed to play and they canceled. The sign said that one of them fell off the stage at CBGBs and broke his leg, but I think they probably showed up, saw how fucked up the show was and just said Τfuck thisΥ and split back to DC.

ERIC-is that how Baltimore always used to be?

TONIE-yeah, in the mid-80s it was like that. And the other band that played were THE SERIAL KILLERS from Philadelphia.

ERIC-Oh god! they sucked. But they were cool people.

TONIE-well they played and the crowd was totally on their wavelength. And then RUIN gets up there. And when they started playing they just floored everybody. Their music was so powerful.

ERIC-actually the town I was from always had a few kid bands that would do ΢proofΣ or some other RUIN cover. Just cuz they were one of the big bands from PhillyΙ I can totally see you digging the Buddhism.

TONIE-I went to the show with these people who were not into hardcore at all. They had their KRAFTWERK tribute band and like DAVID SYLVAIN and whatever weird shit was happening then, and the one guy just adamantly hated hardcore; and he was like ΢OK, RUIN is the one greatest hardcore band ever!Σ

ERIC-they would love to hear that. They played a reunion show a few months ago to like 20 people. I was never so into RUIN.

TONIE-it just had a big impact on me then, because it was punk or hardcore music, but with an attitude that was totally different.

ERIC-thats for sure. I think they were all wigged-out Temple University religion majors. Actually there were a few other bands there with the same weird drugged out spirituality thing.

TONIE-I didnΥt even know about all that till years later, but just the way they were that nightΙ Cuz if you asked any kid at that show what his favorite hardcore band was he wouldΥve been like ΢uh the SERIAL KILLERS!Σ or ΢I came to see GIΣ. But in the end they were floored.

ERIC-was that before they got rid of MARC ALBERSTADT? Before they got really bad?

TONIE-they hadnΥt gotten totally bad yet. I mean I think it was all bad except for maybe ΢JoyrideΣ.

ERIC-exactly! Because Mike Fellows was on it. Thats such an awesome record! ΢blending inΣ! ΢please understandΣ!

TONIE-so those are our generic answers.

SCOTT-I saw GENOCIDE. They were from a Maryland suburb and they would just rock.

TONIE-at the fire hall in Pasadena? You were there? Far out.

SCOTT-that was Υ88 or Υ89. The first real show I went to.

TONIE-GENOCIDE played like 2 hours. They played every METALLICA song that had been recorded up to that point.

SCOTT-I remember there was this big 6 foot 7 skinhead who kept picking me up and carrying me around because he really liked me. I was scared. I went with Colin and the way Colin talked it upΙ I had like razor blades all over my body, waiting to fight for my life. I totally thought I was gonna die that night. And my ears rang for 5 days until I sneezed. There were trophies lining the walls and they all just shook. It was the scariest thing ever.

TONIE-IMAGES played I think.

ERIC-I saw them with GI actually and they were really really bad. What was the deal with that band? They were so bad.

TONIE-I went to high school with a lot of them.

ERIC-they had some really fashioned out ex-hardcore metalhead bassist and a really straight preppy on guitar and the super straight singer who totally copped his shtick from Ian MacKaye. I thought they were a really weird mix. And the graphics for their 7Σ were really really bad.

TONIE-yeah they were pretty odd. And that epitomizes where we came from.

SCOTT-yeah.

TONIE-that was like the majority of kids. MOSS ICON played with them a lot. When we first started we were friends. But when they first started they had different members and were somewhat cooler. But they just mutated.

SCOTT-the drummer ended up playing with THE BOO YA TRIBE.

ERIC-thats pretty weirdΙ Are there GO GO bands around Baltimore?

SCOTT-pretty much just in DC

TONIE-IΥve never been to any of those things.

ERIC-what, you never saw MINOR THREAT with TROUBLE FUNK?

TONIE-the guy who got me into punk rock saw that show. My cousin was in this cover band that did WHO covers, which was pretty cool for back then. They were called THE SPIES. But one of those guys was totally into weirder shit when it was happening in the early 80s, and he was into KRAFTWERK and TROUBLE FUNK and MINOR THREATΙ But I always heard about the go go punk shows from him. They sounded pretty cool.

ERIC-totally. So there are still GO GO bands down there?

TONIE-I guess the sceneΥs changed alittle.

ERIC-none of those bands got really rich.

SCOTT-its still pretty big. I work in a used record store in Annapolis and theres still a lot of GO GO stuff coming in on real small labels and stuff.

ERIC-its still like kids playing a bunch of drums?

SCOTT-no no, its weird cuz its the people who were into it 15 years ago are still into it. Theyre just 35 now. It doesnΥt seem like the youth picked it up really.

TONIE-did rap affect it any?

ERIC-or kill it?

SCOTT-rap killed it, I think, for the youth. Because if rap werenΥt as influential then there would be other things for people to vibe on. RapΥs just so all-consuming of that genre.

ERIC-it always seemed like it was gonna be either GO GO or rap to take over. Like when that record came out with the Capitol Building on the cover and the 3 XΥs through it, you know what IΥm talking bout? I think it was a compilation from a movie? And none of that ever came to pass.

SCOTT-it never really like exploded. Its kinda weird because its still pretty powerful in DC, but its like just a generational thing where those guys are just gonna get old and die and so will GO GO.

ERIC-΢OGGΥsΣ instead of ΢OGΥsΣΙ were you ever into RITES OF SPRING?

TONIE-I followed that but I never saw them just because I didnΥt have a ride when they were happening. And all those bands went up to Baltimore and played shows. At the time I was really into BEEFEATER much more. That was where I was at.

ERIC-around their first record? The one with TomasΥs dick hanging out?

TONIE-all of them really. I followed it all the way through. They were my favorite DC band of that point, the post-VOID/FAITH shit.

ERIC-yeah, I used to say that DischordΥs peak was the BEEFEATER LP with all the guests on the back. So you were you too young for that?

TONIE-yeah I never had a ride. I heard about it happening. But the weird thing is, a couple years after that, like 1988, shock waves were really going out to other placesΙ Now this is a funny story youΥll probably wanna have recorded. But the shockwaves were going out to other parts of the country just the way shit does; so MOSS ICON never really played out of state, but at one point, a couple people from Illinois wanted us to go out there and play. So we were gonna go out for 5 days and play. Most of the shows fell through except we had 3 that we thought were still worth it. So we go out to Rockford Illinois which is some fucked up suburb of Chicago and we end up playing this hall with NO FXΙ And all the kids were like ΢yeah! DAG NASTY was just here!Σ and they were asking us about all these DC bands and we were just like ΢I donΥt know man, we donΥt really follow that shit. WeΥre into STEPPENWOLF.Σ

ERIC-(ha ha) and all the little straight edge kids were like WHAT?!

TONIE-well, we were honest about it. We were into STEPPENWOLF and shit like that more. I mean of course we were into GANG OF 4 too, but they would probably have been more clueless about that. But they were all like ΢yeah, isnΥt Wig Out At Denkos great?!Σ or ΢do you have the EMBRACE demo?!Σ So we were just like ΢I donΥt know, manΣ. We played a show and it was just so freaked out. We had to spend a night with NOFX. We kept calling this dude about the show the next day and he wasnΥt answering so we just ditched it and drove all the way home. We drove 16 hours, got paid $50 bucks, played with NOFX, got bugged by these way-late DC worshippers and drove home.

ERIC-I imagine so many of MOSS ICONΥs shows were like that. That flyer from the Pennsylvania show with UPTOWN BONES and SOULSIDE says youΥre from DC.

TONIE-they kinda were. No one really gave a shit about it. But there were some really good shows, especially in Annapolis there were really good people who understood where we were coming from. And there were a couple shows in DC where I thought we really made a connection.

ERIC-who did you play with there?

TONIE-see, we played cool shows. There was one great show; us, FUGAZI, IGNITION and it was ULYSSES first show. And that was one of the high lights of my life. The main reason wasnΥt only the bill but that we played well. Cuz MOSS ICON was pretty hit-or-miss. We didnΥt even play that many shows. We werenΥt like a reliable band.

ERIC-how many shows did MOSS ICON play?

TONIE-like 30 something, but thats over the course of 2 or 3 years.

ERIC-how many outside of the ΤhometownΥ?

TONIE-well, not counting DC we played in Illinois once, New York once, Massachusetts once, Connecticut once, and Pennsylvania.

ERIC-thats it? Thats cool for such a ΤcultΥ band. Maybe you guys were the VELVET UNDERGROUND of the 80Υs.

TONIE-people always said it was a weird cult band like that. I guess if you were to define sort of what a cult band is. To me it was kind of a drag. Its neat now to look back on. Like I felt really good when we did UOA cuz I always wanted to be really active. I have to be like, intensively doing something. IΥm sure the first year UOA existed we did twice as many shows as MOSS ICON ever did.

SCOTT-we were together from september Υ92 to september Υ94. Spring Υ93 was when we started touring. Then fallΥ93 and spring Υ94 we toured.

SCOTT-we hardly did any shows in Maryland.

TONIE-and UNIVERSAL ORDER never played in Baltimore

ERIC-whys that? Cuz nobody cared or something?

TONIE-Baltimore was in a bad time then, as far as peopleΥs interests or peopleΥs cohesion. There was a lack of some kind of community.

SCOTT-they didnΥt care about us and we didnΥt care about them. We had no problem with that. We just didnΥt have a home.

TONIE-weΥd drive off and play weird places. I mean even coming to play Cabbage Collective shows in Philadelphia was awesome compared to anywhere in Maryland. I mean the only good bands where LUNGFISH and CANDY MACHINE back then and 1 or 2 other obscure ones. And those are like the old people, and the younger kids wereΙ

SCOTT-just brainlessΙ Now its getting a lot better.

ERIC-that band PALLANTINEΥs pretty awesome.

SCOTT-theyre really good and those guys are freaks. They donΥt go out, they donΥt talk to anybody. They just put out a single and that was it. Now theyΥre done.

TONIE-when you saw them I think that was their reformation. Cuz they played in a really obscure way, broke up then went to NYC and then started playing again. I think theyΥre based out of NY now. You saw them couple months ago right?

ERIC-early summer, they were really good and weird; the guy was reading lyrics from a book and stuff. I was like right on.

SCOTT-they had so many different singers. And their singles great.

TONIE-and someone should have distributed it more. Thats the thing; some of the coolest things in Baltimore go completely unnoticed.

ERIC-whats up with that band THE HASSASINS or whatever theyΥre called?

TONIE-they went unnoticed at first, that was the record I helped with, the instrumental one. But IΥm not into what they do now; like theyre on the bar rock circuit.

ERIC-all those bands play at clubs and bars?

TONIE-buts thats pretty much all there is to play. We play at clubs too. And UOA even did too. But its not the venue that dictates the thing but the attitude of the bands and the people that dictate how the thing is. Its an ambiguous concept to have to try to explain. Its more of a feeling I get, or an emotional thing that made me hate it for a long time and made me feel good now that its changing. But I canΥt explain how its changing or what its changing from if you know what I meanΙ Other than to say that Τits a bar rock thingΥ. I donΥt mean its bad to play in bars.

ERIC-its bad to play in shitty bars.

TONIE-or its bad for shitty bands to play in bars. But back then these people, or their intentions or whatever, it just rubbed me the wrong way. It just feels wrong..

ERIC-yeah, its not very punk.

TONIE-right, thats exactly it. You can still play in bars and it can be a totally punk thing. And even a band like CANDY MACHINE who are bunch of old dudes who sound really weird were still way more punk to me at that time than any of the other bands that were going.

ERIC-they do seem like theyΥve been around forever.

TONIE-when they were young I donΥt know what they were into. But they come from more like an art scene in Baltimore thats always kinda existed in a real obscure way that I thinks been cool. Like I remember when I was a lot younger and I didnΥt know anyone in Baltimore and this guy from Baltimore invited me to this art show and it was these people who I later realized were hooked up with CANDY MACHINE and those kinds of people. And its definitely an older crowd. And a lot of kids who consider themselves punk look down on that crowd. But if they had really examined it they would have realized that all those people were really punk in their own way. Cuz they were totally creating their own community. I mean even though a lot of art is bad, its still cool that there are people doing that kind of thing. And Baltimores always had that; but at the same time its a small city so its not gonna be in the limelight like NYC.

ERIC-BaltimoreΥs smaller than Philadelphia isnΥt it?

TONIE-yeah I think so.

ERIC-theres lots of people here that are totally into CANDY MACHINE.

TONIE-CANDY MACHINE are cool cuz theyΥve been around so long. And theyre a legacy like LUNGFISH. CANDY MACHINE can be really great. I just think theyΥve never gotten a break. Like sometimes I go see them and IΥm not in the right mood and they seem like they play too long and I canΥt deal with it.

ERIC-they wouldΥve had a whole different story if they were from 30 minutes south of Baltimore.

TONIE-that was always the obscure cool thing about Baltimore, when the whole, overall pictureΥs contemplated. But nowadays there are bunch of new bands.

ERIC-whoΥs that band you were telling me about whoΥre a bunch of fat kids who sound like PERE UBU?

TONIE-yeah theyre one of the newer ones. The UNHEARD ONES. Have you ever heard like old PERE UBU? WhatΥs that one song, their like greatest songΙ

ERIC-I donΥt know. What was the singerΥs name? He was all fat and shit with a weird name. He was awesome.

TONIE-he did have a weird name.

ERIC-that crazy PERE UBU kinda shit was always on the college radio when I was a little kid. But I donΥt know anything about them; I just always thought of all that as weird art bands.

TONIE-have you ever seen the movie ΢Urrgh a Music WarΣ?

ERIC-are they on that? I was always more into the CHELSEA part.

TONIE-there was a lot of cool weird shit. If you go from like the CRAMPS to GANG OF 4 that was all cool. Even WALL OF VOODOO is kinda cool. But what about KLAUS NOMIE!(ha ha) And his plastic penguin suit!

ERIC-awesome! KLAUS NOMIE COVER BAND!

TONIE-what?

ERIC-that was some running joke in old CONFLICT fanzines. I always thought he was the guy that would really start one.

TONIE-some one told me this onceΙ this is another bit of weird MOSS ICON mythology, or Annapolis mythology. But someone told me that uhΙ whats that guys name, Cosloy?, for a while he had a show on FMU and heΥd always play THE HATED and MOSS ICON like he was really into them.

ERIC-he was into the first UNREST records which I thought was cool of someone like that. And those records fit right in with like the MOSS ICON thing or atmosphere.

TONIE-I though he must have been cool.

ERIC-he must have a good ear.

TONIE-I wonder why Matador never called us up then.

ERIC-cuz they have to make moneyΙ yeah did you ever see UNREST back then? Were you guys into them?

TONIE-I donΥt think IΥve ever even heard UNREST. I never paid any attention to them.

ERIC-are you serious? I always thought UNREST were really awesome. At least their first records were totally great.

TONIE-IΥve heard that from so many people.

ERIC-thatΥs probably the way by which I got into the first MOSS ICON 7Σ.

TONIE-really?

ERIC-yeah, through the wigged-out, later period DC weirdo, whatever shit.

TONIE-like the weird DC shit that wasnΥt Dischord.

ERIC-exactly. Like the freer sounding shit that was around then, which was like MOSS ICON and UNREST. And even like PHANTOM TOLBOOTH and stuff. But yeah, their first record to me, was totally similar to like MOSS ICON, or how I percieved MOSS ICON after you all played in the Lehigh Valley (PA). Its really ΤfreeΥ and whatever.

TONIE-did you ever dig MISSION IMPOSSIBLE?

ERIC-yes. What ever happened toΙ

TONIE- they were awesome.

ERIC-do you have the ΤAlive and KickingΥ 7Σ? Thats the best song on it by far!

TONIE-that is the best song, totally (Tonie starts mouthing the guitar part)

ERIC-yeh it sounded like a 12 string guitar. They were rad and that song was rad. Thats the only song of theirs I ever heard.

TONIE-oh man, I have to tape that demo for you.

ERIC-so they were as good as that song.

TONIE-there are tons of songs that are almost as good as that song. I mean did you get the split with LUNCHMEAT?

ERIC-nah, I always though LUNCHMEAT sucked. I liked DAIN BRAMAGE a lot. The DAIN BRAMAGE LP on the crappy California label is pretty awesome.

TONIE-but, yeah, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE and BEEFEATER were my favorite bands back then. I kinda liked EMBRACE but not so much.

ERIC-they were too light.

TONIE-they dawned on me later. And I guess RITES OF SPRING I listened to the least. My friend got the record and I tried to listen to it at his house and I couldnΥt deal with it at first.

ERIC-were you like ΢the drums sound weirdΣ? I think that productionΥs fucking awesome.

TONIE-it took me a while. I appreciated it years later. Only after kids were like ΢are you guys,is MOSS ICON influenced by RITES OF SPRING?Σ So people would ask that years later and I thought maybe I should check it out again.

ERIC-It was like ΢End on EndΣ, that long song on the GRAY MATTER recordΙ

TONIE-the epic one on the end.

ERIC-the one they were ripping off RITES OF SPRINGΙ uh ΢In my HeadΣ; and then like ΢IΥm back sleeping or fucking or somethingΣ. To me and a few others from Bethlehem, those were the best songs ever for a while. Now those songs would all fit well on a good rock history driving tape.

TONIE-I think its all funny cuz we were not conscious of what they were doing. And IΥm still not conscious of what trip they were on. IΥm sure it was a really cool one. But I never thought it would be a very tasteful thing to ask any of them. Just cuz they would never ask me anything. Although one time, this is kinda funny. We played in southern Maryland, which is like farm country, in this old like county fair building, where I guess they usually had rodeos and shit, in like Saint MaryΥs County. It was THE HATED and FUGAZI and us. And FUGAZI had just started.

ERIC-and every showΙ like the first 20 FUGAZI shows were taped and traded around the whole country within 10 minutes.

TONIE-I donΥt know if this one was cuz man, we played to like 20 farm kids and no DC people really came. They were just awesome; seeing them play to like 20 people with us. But we had this one song that we only played one time live, at that show. It was totally crazy. It was really fast and weird and the lyrics, even the title, were just really fucking weird. And afterward IanΥs all ΢what was that? What was that all about?Σ And I was like ΢I donΥt know man, as JohnΣ.

ERIC-was he a dick about it?

TONIE-people say that. People I run into around the country say that but heΥs totally one of the greatest people.

SCOTT-people just vibe on the negative things concerning well known people.

TONIE-the best thing I can add to that is another old Annapolis tale which is good for posterity. There were friends of THE HATED and MOSS ICON who were the same people who were down on DC. They were always like, ΢Dischord should make THE HATED a super big bandΣ or something. And of course that was just totally wrong. Or theyΥd always say like ΢IanΥs a dickΣ. And those fuckers are in the Army now; those dumb kids who were always down on DC people. Or theyΥve smoked so much pot they canΥt enjoy it now or whatever. You know what I mean? These people run their mouths but what did they ever fucking do?

ERIC-΢You got something to say, say it or do it.Σ

TONIE-right.

ERIC-thats an Ian line from an early live tape.

TONIE-yeah. Anyway, those fuckers joined the army. What are they doingΙ

ERIC-werenΥt you saying that one of the dudes from THE HATEDΥs all smoked out on PCP. Or heΥs a crackhead or something?

TONIE-most of the people that were involved in the early Annapolis thing didnΥt stay active in anything I would consider productive. So a lot of people went downhill in a bad way; the so-called Τbad suburban tripΥ, be it a rural suburban crack trip or like joining the Army or going to Harvard and not studying something cool. But one of the only people thats stayed in control is Danny. He sang and played guitar. The other guy, Eric, he sang and played guitar, heΥs not involved in subculture or anything like that, but he went more the scholastic route, like heΥs been in college for 10 years. I donΥt know what heΥs into but I think he may be on some weird, well not weird, some religious tangent. IΥm not at all sure what it is cuz I lost touch. But towards the end of the whole thing there werenΥt many folks left. In the end it was THE HATED and MOSS ICON carrying the torch.

ERIC-what all did they put out? Other than the 12Σ?

TONIE-donΥt you have their 7Σs?

ERIC-that was the other thing I wanted to say, or that I was wondering about; THE HATEDΥs, and to a lesser extent, MOSS ICONΥs lyric sheets even look like Guy PicciottoΥs fucking handwriting. Whatever.

TONIE-really? Wow, I donΥt know about that.

ERIC-To me back then that was awesome. It was like a cool obscure clue cuz back then not many people even rated DC bands other than MINOR THREAT or VOID. I mean in Bethlehem; or Philly.

TONIE-the handwriting?

ERIC-really. Especially THE HATEDΥs; it looks like the RITES OF SPRING sleeve. It was like a secret clue back then.

TONIE-I donΥt think THE HATEDΙ those guys were older and they saw MINOR THREAT, and by the time they saw RITES OF SPRING I think they were pretty burned out on hardcore, so I donΥt know.

TONIE-did they like RITES OF SPRING? I mean RITES OF SPRING was about being burned out on ΤhardcoreΥ anyway.

TONIE-well yeah, it was a reaction to bad things going down in DCΙ

ERIC-and in most other cities, and the repercussions of what it caused across the country.

TONIE-RITES OF SPRING must have been a big breakthrough for that area. But I think we were so isolated in Annapolis we did our own thing.

ERIC-so youΥre saying that the handwriting is just a regional thing maybe.

TONIE-I mean I can probably trace weird lineage or influences that I think, from hardcore, influenced THE HATED. I mean theres tons of acoustic shit,like Danny and Eric doing shit that would blow away almost any folk music ever created. Just because its so beautiful but not whimpy and dumb. Its just totally raw.

ERIC-what other records are there?

TONIE-First was ΢no more we cryΣ, a 4 song 7Σ. The second one was a double 7Σ set called ΢like the daysΣ. And then they got poppier and put out ΢every songΣ. And the last was old stuff, the ΢what was behindΣ LP. All on Vermin Scum. And there was even a lot of later, more poppy stuff. And I donΥt mean poppy in a bad way. But they did shit and we did shit in this place where no one would let you have a show. I mean I guess it never dawned on us to actually leave. I guess the people who wanted to figured out they could go somewhere cooler. And I always wallowed in the shit and never really left; and I finally realized that things could happen in Baltimore. IΥve sort of embraced that as my true calling.

ERIC-there should really be more of a connection between Philly and Baltimore; being like the more fucked up, smaller old cities of the east coast.

TONIE-those 2 cities always seemed like whatever cool things were going on seemed disjointed whereas DC had this empire, this Dischord empire that broadcast out to the world. And thats totally a great thing and its a shame that other cities canΥt be that cohesive.

ERIC-DC seems like it overshadows Baltimore like NYC overshadows Philadelphia.

TONIE-theres never been anything as cohesive as the Dischord thing wasΙ

ERIC-in pretty much anyother city. Even today DischordΥs prettty neat and uniqueΙ I have to take a pee

I RETURN WITH BETH

BETH-so this interviews not over yet,

TONIE-its just sort of looseΙ

SCOTT-it hasnΥt really started yet.

TONIE-but big epic Τzine interviews are cool.

ERIC-like mid-period FORCED EXPOSURE interviews, you know what IΥm talking about?

TONIE-yeah with like BUTTHOLE SURFERS or MX 80 SOUND or some fucked up weird band. I mean if you hit the right buttons I think I could, as far as reminiscing about the past orΙ

ERIC-but thats doing a diservice to you guys. Or your record company.

TONIE-but I mean if you hit the right buttons I think I could say the right things that are actually worth someone reading. And I think we have alittle. But IΥve never been like, ΤI gotta tell my storyΥ, cuz its like, who gives a shit about my story. But lately I realize my story is kinda relevant.

ERIC-its only been lately youΥve realized that MOSS ICON and UOA are totally a cult deal?

TONIE-No, I just always thought it would be really pompous and offensive if I were to feel that my story was worthy of anyone listening to it. But now I know that it is. Not like I really think anyoneΥs gonna think IΥm pompous but I feel it.

ERIC-fuck that. Who cares what pople think.

TONIE-I really felt like that for years, feeling like gross about wanting to really say whatΙ

ERIC-is that like some cultural hegemony thing from DC that makes people from Annapolis or Baltimore think that theyre any lessΙ

TONIE-no. I just think I used to be too shy and timid about everything in my existence. But IΥve overcome some of it. But now its also weird cuz now its more like there is some name recognition to meΙ

ERIC-and youΥve only figured that out recently?

TONIE-I donΥt know. I just donΥt want to toot my horn too much; and people will be like ΢heΥs some snob-ass rock starΣ. I donΥt care about me or my rockstar status now, but I do feel likeΙ Like I said, IΥm gonna write some kind a book, or do something in some kind of Τzine, and try to pinpoint the really important things regarding this mythology.

ERIC-so as to vindicate it.

TONIE-Well I think there are basic points to be made that are importantΙ like nutrition for people now and in the future; and that also connects to concepts that just now IΥm really delving into.

ERIC-like what?

TONIE-concepts of what can reallyΙ and this all comes down a more emotional thing, or just like a feeling thing, but what good can really possibly come out of a subculture or a community or a family. And like IΥve thought a lot about family and shit lately.

ERIC-is that cuz John Vance has a kid now?

TONIE-not so much that kind of family but in a sort of spiritual sense, for lack of a better word.

ERIC-just new definitions of community.

TONIE-yeah or just to actually have the realization of one; or me, just personally, to be a part of one. And also for there to be other ones and have them all networked in a really productive way. Cuz IΥve talked with people about that for years. Its a really good notion. But to actually conceptualize how to really do it and why it needs to be done. And then to try to do it.

ERIC-dude I think thereΥs this new, or not so new, subcult or community in which the MOSS ICON deal has been an an actual icon, an important thing. And thereΥs communities within communitiesΙ

TONIE-thatΥs totally cool, and I almost feel like I have a responsibility now to not, like smoke crack. I didnΥt know this MOSS ICON reverence was happening, but all that shitΥs amazing. IΥm not so much flattered as I am floored. You know what IΥm saying at all?

ERIC-the endless generation of cultures.

TONIE-at first I was totally into this obscure thing, and then it was after I started traveling and meeting new people, in like BORN AGAINST and UOA, that I really started thinking again about the shit IΥd done before. And then it was also happening with UOA, being sort of a cult band while it existed.

ERIC-because of its past?

TONIE-I think moreso because of how it related to everything else that was happening at that time. We were freaking out on the coattails of more traditional shit like ROHRSACH, not that they were really traditional. I think we were really, in the context of those times, from way out in left field. And thatΥs why UOA was like a cult thing in its moment. I started realizing then, IΥd run into people IΥd never met, but someone I really clicked with; and they would divulge this shit to me about how this or that had this impact. And it really kinda hit me over the past couple of years. Now IΥm just like, thats cool, but why canΥt everybody in every town do that too; and why canΥt it all be connected and take over the world. IΥd just love to see a lot of good things happen.

ERIC-basically, people should be doing more things.

TONIE-yeah and there were times when I just totally wasnΥt and I was about to hit the crack; I just totally hated life and hated myself. But luckily I got myself out of it and did UOA and kept doing shit. But that speaks of the importance of documenting things, you know? I donΥt wanna say history but I like to use the word mythology; because a lot of the shit I would talk about from the past is like not really dead in the past, its sort of timeless in a way. I mean the whole point is like maybe people canΙ

ERIC-generate their own myths.

TONIE-or generate their own new thing from the myths. Or just like be inspired.

ERIC-thatΥs how subculture history worksΙ

TONIE-thereΥs a lot in the past that IΥve thought was cool and something you could structure a culture around.

BETH-so MOSS ICON wasnΥt a low point for you personally.

TONIE-well, right after it was. And in between cuz it kept breaking up and coming back together.

ERIC-what was up with that band LAVA?

TONIE-I was a studio guitaristΙ or something.

ERIC-its not the greatest.

TONIE-no, it was pretty beat. Around that point I was coming out of my own personal rehabΙ I mean it when I say that I never needed the substances to be fucked up because I was just "fucked up"...

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(((((((((((((((((((((((buy this stiff , man )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

ACTUALLY, EXCEPT FOR THE HASHIGO / XPLANET AND BETHX CD, ALL THIS STUFF IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE

BUY THIS EXCITING PRODUCTION LINE!

HASHIGO / XPLANET AND BETHX split CD 2 diff. approaches to the teleportive psych guitar thing. OUT SUMMER 99h

for sale now, for the open minds of yr scene

VOID "potions for bad dreams" unreleased 1984 2^nd LP full of both proto-vampire-core and pre-"Green Hell" speed metal, not to mention ancient DCisms C-45

CLEES "the changing face of rock" beautiful journey through the jazzy mind of one rock guitarist. Its all about a love supreme... C-90

XPLANETX-"the sadness and bluegrass emo" the first release and still the longest. Frazzled simple guitar psych. Described in Japanese press as "very easy mellow psychedelics" and "like Waldo Jeffers and old PALACE c~90

XPLANET AND BETHX- "karaoke is ass" the 1998 release features the hit "more part I" which features a treatise from the movie "More". This time not so simple cuz the karaoke boom box was turned into a 5 track recorder. C~10

THEE HEARTACHE TAPES comp. From '88 -'92 Rugby, UK's Heartache label put out the coolest and most inspiring tape-only releases of the best psych bands from this famed druggy town. SPACEMEN 3, LOSERS, DARKSIDE, GUARANTEED UGLY, etc. C-45

KILL THE MESSENGER comp. For bike messengers; with FRANKLIN, PLANET, ANONYMOUS and the dEALERS (with Henry Miller speaking). Benefits The Philly Bike Messenger Cult666. C-45

THE dEALERS "3-7-97 in the usa# live tape of the last show. A freakout improv rite of spring before the move to Asia ; with Charles O'Connor spoken word. C-45

EASY POP ART tee shirt the official easy subculture shirt screened in tokyo by pros. With asian pix and "walk around and smell of sex" in poem form. M,L,XL white or blue

I HAVE VIDEO! lots of japanese bands like duck missle, uphold, fushitsusha, disclose, hadaka no rallies, intl jet set, lifeball, gloom, just one day, yura yura teikoku, snatcher, nails of hawaiian etc. a totally revealing sampling of many scenes on one tape. (USA / JAPAN system only) (and folksy, DIY, varying quality!)